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Where is the State waters boundary?

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Where is the State waters boundary?

Postby Dragon » Mon Dec 05, 2011 11:13 pm

OK guys...I was told to get off the beach tonight and said "Screw You"! :dude: I was at/in the water at low tide wading, and was told that the city ordinance did not allow fishing on this particular stretch of beach. I was threatened and told that the Cops would be called. I said 'go ahead and call them'. Of course the cops later showed up in full SWAT gear, assault rifles, halogen floodlights, and K-9 telling me to leave the area. I said that they didn't have authority to order me to leave to area since I had proper licenses and permits, and I was fishing in State waters (Below the low tide waterline). The cop says "It wouldn't benefit you if I arrested you right now for violation of a city ordinance". I said "The city can't make law, only the Legislature can, and I am in State waters with a proper license/permit to fish, so go ahead and arrest me". He checked me out and let me go but promised he would check out 'the law'. I gave him my info and said, please come get me if I am wrong and arrest me...I also said a city ordinance is not the law, but the state statute is the law, and the city can't make law, only the state legislature can (disregarding local home rule). Am I right or wrong? Where does the State's 'jurisdiction' or boundary line(s) begin or end? What municipality or county ordinance prevails over State law (obviously none)? Obviously the law/FL statute wins over any city or county 'ordinance', but without having to waste alot of time asking for legal opinions from various city/county/state attorney's, which I will/can do/get, does anyone really know the answer? I'm sick & tired of people telling me where I can & can't fish when I have a license from the state to do so, and as a taxpayer, I already paid for that stretch of beach/pier/jetty/bridge/whatever. Tonight I'm on a rant/mission :salut: guys to protect our RIGHT to harvest the fish we pay with our tax dollars to protect (within the law, of course) and fish where we are allowed to do so! :auto: :pistols: :mad: :nopity: :reeling: :happyfisherman: :cheers:

OK (Edit) I just saw this thread viewtopic.php?f=37&t=22058 but still would like input...
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Re: Where is the State waters boundary?

Postby Dragon » Mon Dec 05, 2011 11:18 pm

Florida Statute 379.105 (2) answers the question..."Beaches" and "shores" shall mean the coastal and intracoastal shoreline of this state bordering upon the waters of the Atlantic Ocean, the Gulf of Mexico, the Straits of Florida, and any part thereof, and any other bodies of water under the jurisdiction of the State of Florida, between the mean high-water line and as far seaward as may be necessary to effectively carry out the purposes of this act.
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Re: Where is the State waters boundary?

Postby crashmister » Tue Dec 06, 2011 7:02 am

Congratulations Dagon! You did exactly the right thing. This has been going on for years. People think they own the beach. Whatever town you were in, send them the laws quoted in the Boca Shark fishing ban thread. viewtopic.php?f=37&t=24345&start=60&hilit=Boca+Shark+fishing+ban

Well Done!!!
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Re: Where is the State waters boundary?

Postby tom222 » Tue Dec 06, 2011 9:10 am

Thanks for the very informative post. Good for you !!!!!
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Re: Where is the State waters boundary?

Postby BoatlessFisherman » Tue Dec 06, 2011 10:33 am

Congratulations on your Stance.

Yes from all of what I know you are with in your rights.

With that said I am not going to tell you, That you are not going to be cited because more cities will try. Good on the police for being willing to look into it before acting.

I would like to know and please post here so myself and a few others that I know will act can.

City and Area and Local Law enforcement office that approached you.

I have a special Email.

Thanks
-Tommy A-

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Re: Where is the State waters boundary?

Postby BoatlessFisherman » Tue Dec 06, 2011 10:39 am

Oh as to what can a city do as far as making a no fishing law.

They can if they can show a safety issue, if they do not have lifeguards good luck at showing a safety issue because one already exist on the beach without them.

Is this a life guarded beach and if so they could pass an ordinance Day light light hours only.

But as far as I know this is the only way a municipality can make an ordinance governing the beach from fishing.
-Tommy A-

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Re: Where is the State waters boundary?

Postby Signguy » Tue Dec 06, 2011 4:04 pm

Dragon, Maybe I missed it, But which city were you fishing in? I fish the Boca Area, and If I need to be able to recite the law I am going to have to print it.
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Re: Where is the State waters boundary?

Postby cudaman » Tue Dec 06, 2011 4:32 pm

Dragon, it's always good to have a peaceful dialogue with the law, good thing you did and they understood. :toast:
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Re: Where is the State waters boundary?

Postby Dragon » Tue Dec 06, 2011 5:12 pm

It was Hollywood/Dania boundary. The BSO guys showed up first. I stood my ground. In fact, I am going to ask the Police Chief for that District to tell me who took the call, and send them the law so they won't screw with anyone else. In fact, I may take the time to make up a sheet with the laws Tommy already stated, along with some court cases, and that way it can be printed out and kept in a zip lock bag in a tackle box. He also said something about tresspassing, and I said, now how can I be tresspassing on State land and you aren't? He had to think about that one for a minute... :auto: :reeling:
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Re: Where is the State waters boundary?

Postby Dragon » Tue Dec 06, 2011 7:12 pm

Here is their Ordinance;

Sec. 6-12. - Fishing, skin-diving, scuba diving, spearfishing, launching of boats and operating vehicles restricted.

(a)
For the purposes of this section, a "boat" shall include, but is not limited to, any motor or wind-driven boat or vessel, any jet-ski, inflatable device with an engine of any kind, sailboard, canoe or kayak.

(b)
It shall be unlawful to fish from boats, to fish from the beach, to fish from the surf, to swim, to scuba dive, to skin-dive or bring or allow any boat to come within an area of one hundred (100) yards from the outside perimeter of the municipally-owned fishing pier at Dania Beach. It shall also be unlawful to operate any type of boat, vessel or watercraft of any kind within any restricted area as designated by any signs, buoy markers or both, located within a one-hundred-yard distance off-shore as measured at low tide in all beach areas located within the city. It shall also be unlawful to fish or surf cast from any part of the public beach between the hours of 9:00 a.m. and 6:00 p.m. or any day. Additionally, it shall be unlawful to fish from any boat within three hundred (300) yards of the low water mark along the entire beach abutting the Atlantic Ocean in the city.

(c)
Snorkeling will be permitted up to a limit of fifty (50) yards into the Atlantic Ocean, measured eastward from the high tide line of all public beach areas, except as stated above. Snorkeling beyond fifty (50) yards off the public beach is prohibited, unless a person is entering the water in the designated diving area at the southernmost end of the public beach or express permission is given by the supervising marine rescue officer. Artificial breathing devices, such as scuba-tanks, aqua-lungs or hooka rigs, when used in the waters of the area known as Dania Beach, are confined to the designated diving area at the southernmost end of Dania Beach, unless express permission to use such devices elsewhere along the beach is obtained from the supervising marine rescue officer. The use of spearfishing guns, gigs, slings, bows, polespears or any other type of guns on the beach, in the water, or both is prohibited.

(d)
It shall be unlawful to launch any type of boat (i.e. including but not limited to canoe, kayak, sailboat, sailboard, jet ski, pleasure craft, boats being used by research or public safety and protection agencies or inflatable with engine) within the municipal beach area, except within a designated launch area.

(e)
It shall be unlawful for any person to operate any vehicle on the beach, unless permission from the city manager or designee has been obtained.

(Code 1971, § 5-9; Ord. No. 2000-027, § 7, 8-8-00; Ord. No. 2006-020, § 1, 6-13-06)

Sec. 6-30. - Beach defined.

For the purposes of this article, Dania Beach, is more particularly defined as the public park, beach and recreational area fronting on the Atlantic Ocean, consisting of approximately 24.64 acres, and being all of the lands which city owns in the general area, with such lands having been acquired by two (2) sovereignty deeds which are more particularly described in the complaint in Cause No. 76-11449, Circuit Court, Broward County, Florida.
(Ord. No. 141, § 1, 3-28-77)

Sounds like serious violations of State law to me...except for the sovereignty deeds.
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Re: Where is the State waters boundary?

Postby BoatlessFisherman » Wed Dec 07, 2011 4:50 am

Ok the pier is a city park and all rule on that pier must be a city ordinance, they can't just post a rule.

Now if you were with in 100 yards of the pier, yes you would be in Violation of a city ordinance, which is a State law that the city adopted.

So in short
The State of Florida does not allow Fishing, Diving, Boating or any water activity's with in 100 yards of a fishing structure.

Swimming can be allowed but most city piers will close fishing down in that area of the pier, so the first section of the pier will be no fishing for 100 to 300 feet. They do this by using the safety factor.

So if you are not with in a 100 yards of the pier they really do not have Jurisdiction on the land, so you are with in your rights.

Good idea on printing it out, I have mine printed and have done so for 7 years now after I was ask to leave Fort Lauderdale Beach, I threatened a Civil Law Suit of my Florida Rights being Violated and they Jumped, I am not joking when I say everyone in the City from the Mayor down called me to Apologize.
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Re: Where is the State waters boundary?

Postby crashmister » Wed Dec 07, 2011 5:42 am

One other thing, Mean high tide dose not mean the daily high tide mark. It a reference to the established high tide mark as determined by the state. I'll check the area you mentioned, but in places like Boca, it's 80 feet up from the daily high tide mark. Almost all the beach front town's don't own nearly as much beach as they think they do.
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Re: Where is the State waters boundary?

Postby Dragon » Wed Dec 07, 2011 10:14 am

Just as I thought. Thanks Tommy for all you do...& Crash too. Yes, I knew about the pier restrictions but was no where near it.

Found this:
mean high water (MHW)—A tidal datum. The average
of all the high water heights observed over the National
Tidal Datum Epoch. For stations with shorter series,
comparison of simultaneous observations with a control
tide station is made in order to derive the equivalent datum
of the National Tidal Datum Epoch.
mean high water line (MHWL)—The line on a chart
or map which represents the intersection of the land with
the water surface at the elevation of mean high water. See
shoreline.
mean higher high water (MHHW)—A tidal datum.
The average of the higher high water height of each tidal
day observed over the National Tidal Datum Epoch. For
stations with shorter series, comparison of simultaneous
observations with a control tide station is made in order to
derive the equivalent datum of the National Tidal Datum
Epoch.

mean higher high water line (MHHWL)—The line
on a chart or map which represents the intersection of the
land with the water surface at the elevation of mean higher
high water.
mean low water (MLW)—A tidal datum. The average
of all the low water heights observed over the National
Tidal Datum Epoch. For stations with shorter series,
comparison of simultaneous observations with a control
tide station is made in order to derive the equivalent datum
of the National Tidal Datum Epoch.
mean low water line (MLWL)—The line on a chart
or map which represents the intersection of the land with
the water surface at the elevation of mean low water.
mean low water springs (MLWS)—A tidal datum.
Frequently abbreviated spring low water. The arithmetic
mean of the low water heights occurring at the time of
spring tides observed over the National Tidal Datum
Epoch. It is usually derived by taking an elevation
depressed below the half-tide level by an amount equal to
one-half the spring range of tide, necessary corrections
being applied to reduce the result to a mean value. This
datum is used, to a considerable extent, for hydrographic
work outside of the United States and is the level of
reference for the Pacific approaches to the Panama Canal.
mean lower low water (MLLW)—A tidal datum.
The average of the lower low water height of each tidal day
observed over the National Tidal Datum Epoch. For
stations with shorter series, comparison of simultaneous
observations with a control tide station is made in order to
derive the equivalent datum of the National Tidal Datum
Epoch.
mean lower low water line (MLLWL)—The line
on a chart or map which represents the intersection of the
land with the water surface at the elevation of mean lower
low water.


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